New DOE water heater standards April 2014 ???

The Tank New DOE water heater standards April 2014 ???

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  • #21664
    geno03245
    Participant

    Is the 80 gallon electric water heater being discontinued ?
    Does anybody know if the new standards shown in following pdf is true ?
    http://waterheatertimer.org/pdf/New-energy-standards-for-water-heaters-DOE%202015-article.pdf

    #21667
    Larry Weingarten
    Participant

    Hello: I did find this: http://www.appliance-standards.org/product/water-heaters and this http://scliving.coop/energy/new-rules-for-water-heaters/ which both suggest the rule is indeed moving forward. I haven’t heard of anything stopping it. Might be the right time to buy big electric heaters. 🙂

    Yours, Larry

    #21668
    geno03245
    Participant

    What is interesting it that the only method to meet standard with 60+ gallon electric water heater is using hybrid heat pump. Which means you have to remodel house to accommodate 10×10 room requirement with unit spaced 7″ away from wall…. and then you cannot fix the heat pump yourself, buy generic parts, or maintain the water heater to last longer than 12 years. Moreover, the heat pump electronics require surge protection, and the unit cannot be connected to any voltage other than clean 60 Hz 240 volt power.

    The downside for heat pump can easily cost more for homeowner.

    Plus the new DOE standard says nothing about eliminating whole-house Tankless electric… which is far more wasteful than standard tank type electric heater.

    I think the DOE standard reflects industry profits more than actual water heater efficiency.

    #21670
    bgeery
    Participant

    Just move to a smaller tank or go tankless. Most tanks are over sized to begin with, especially when combined with water saving fixtures and appliances.

    #21671
    energyexpert
    Participant

    On 16 April 2015 manufacturers have to comply with the new DOE standards. (But you can install current WHs as long as you can find one.) All residential electric water heaters over 55 gallons will have to have a heat pump. WHs 55 gallons and less will have more insulation. If you need more than a 55 and do not want a heat pump, buy two 40s or 50s and plumb in series and wire in series.

    Rewire the WH closest to the point of use. Unwire the top element from the top thermostat and reconnect the lower element in its place. Then connect the second WH where the lower thermostat was previously connected at the top thermostat. Now when the first WH’s top thermostat is satisfied, power shifts to the second WH. This eliminates having to pull a second circuit and minimizes the draw on the utility.

    3 phase commercial WHs do not have to comply with the new rules. So you could buy a 3 phase, 480 volt, 18 kW WH and wire all 3 elements at 240 and get a 4500 watt WH.

    David

    #21672
    Larry Weingarten
    Participant

    Hello: For tub filling or for a solar system, you usually need a lot of storage. People will probably work around the rule by getting two smaller heaters, but it increases heat loss, working against the intent of the rule. For example, I just installed a solar system with a 105 gallon tank. Works great, but would be less efficient if I had used two 50 gallon tanks. 😕

    Yours, Larry

    #21673
    geno03245
    Participant

    All costs are energy.
    You can repair electric water heater DIY, and maintain electric water heater DIY using generic parts so the tank can last indefinitely.
    80 gallon electric is excellent energy storage for high-consumption home that has peak electric price… set thermostats high, heat water during low peak price, add mixing valve on top of heater to conserve heat inside tank and release tempered water for consumption, then plenty of hot is available even during peak price hours when tank is not running.
    80 gallon is also excellent storage for PV solar-heated water made during good solar days… and acts as energy storage for low solar days.
    Electric water heater can be covered with insulation and placed anywhere inside home or basement or closet.

    Larger water heater tank is needed for large bathtub…. if you switch to two water heaters instead of one large heater, then additional surface area causes more standby loss.

    Switching to tankless or heat-pump or other computer-chip water heater exposes consumer to risk from surge damage that is not present with ordinary electric water heater.
    Computer chip water heaters are not DIY repair, parts are not generic, and they cannot be maintained to last as long as ordinary tank-type heater.
    Manufacturers do not post service manuals for tankless and heat pumps, meaning that simple ordinary problems must be addressed by service technician, or repeated calls to manufacturers that benefit from ending DIY and benefit from channeling you to brand-loyal service company.
    Tankless cannot store energy or integrate with other sources of energy such as solar, or geothermal.
    Tankless gas and electric require electric power: Power outage, no electricity = no hot water.
    Tankless consume more energy to heat 1 gallon of water than conventional tank-type heater. Applies to gas and electric tankless.
    Whole house tankless electric is the most costly method of heating water, yet this product remains on the market, and EF factor was not increased in new DOE standards.
    Tankless manuals suggest yearly maintenance by qualified service technician, the heat exchangers are prone to scale build-up and must be delimed each year, deliming each year does not prevent decline in efficiency
    Tankless manual recommends cleaning water filter each month.
    Hybrid electric heat pump is not DIY repair, no generic parts, requires maintenance, cannot be maintained to last forever, no service manuals, makes noise, blows cold air, uses HVAC to heat water, cannot heat very much water in full hybrid mode, cannot be maintained to last forever, etc. In other words, you cannot fill big bathtub and wash clothes and take shower and expect to use full hybrid mode… you will use the heating elements exactly like buying ordinary 80 gallon electric water heater.

    Tankless gas and heat pump do not have flammable vapor resistance, and can ignite flammable vapors. Ordinary tank-electric does not have same problem.
    Tankless and heat pump cannot be exposed to dirty air or dusty environment, and cannot be confined inside a closet or put down into the crawlspace, as with ordinary electric water heater.

    All costs are energy: Repair costs, need for surge protection, replacement of unit, added maintenance, room space requirement, ability to store heat and integrate with other sources are all factors that are not considered when measuring EF factors.

    #21674
    geno03245
    Participant

    I agree two water heaters give a lot of wiring options… too bad they take up more space:
    http://waterheatertimer.org/Two-water-heaters.html

    Good tip about using commercial water heater… especially folks with businesses that use hot water. Many folks buy a business or start a business and replace the water heater, then discover using the old-style heater no longer meets local code upgrade requirement for 9000-12000 watt simultaneous operation.

    When you talk about 3-phase 480 volt water heaters… maybe you are specifying 3-phase non-balanced which looks identical to ordinary water heater and can be connected directly to single-phase power with minimal wiring change… as opposed to 3-phase balanced water heater that controls 3U-type elements with bank of relays located inside box attached to front of heater, with some wiring variations depending if power source is wye or delta?
    http://waterheatertimer.org/How-to-wire-water-heater-thermostats.html#3-phase

    Also I hear the heat pump water heater anode rods are difficult to inspect and replace?
    That you have to remove parts to access the anode?
    http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/sales-through-XCart.html
    And you cannot install power anode rod?
    http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Power-Anode.html

    #21675
    Randy Schuyler
    Keymaster

    Wow! You guys are talking up a storm! I feel as if I woke up from a nap and found it was a hundred years later!

    Larry and I will be going to the ACEEE Hot Water Forum in a couple of weeks. We’ve met people in such places that have good intentions, but who so fixate on “saving energy” that they forget there are other considerations — such as whether anybody will be able to afford a hot shower when all is said and done.

    A friend of ours named Gary Klein advocates getting the energy savings by reworking the plumbing instead of by making water heaters harder to live with. Passive system, nothing to go wrong or maintain.

    I wonder if there will be a revolt one of these days when people realize how complicated and expensive water heaters have been made to be.

    Regarding maintenance, the GE Geosprings produced by Rheem had accessible anodes and powered anodes could be used with them. Other makes, don’t know. Now that the GE brand is owned by Electrolux, I’ll be curious to see if the design changes.

    Randy Schuyler

    #21676
    geno03245
    Participant

    Tanks, er thanks, for update on geospring

    When you go to Aceee, please stress DIY as 3rd rail of energy savings.
    All costs are energy.
    Generic parts, modular components, service manuals… because when you have thousands of homeowers working on stuff, improvements and innovations are made.

    Construct water heaters so they are as easy and cheap to diagnose and maintain and repair as ordinary electric heater, then that gives true energy savings [which coincidentally will hurt corporate profit margin].

    There cannot be energy savings when a service call costs $400, you need 3 different people: computer-technican, electrician and plumber to service same appliance, when the easy soution is to install new water heater, the unit requires continual maintenance, unit is vulnerable to simple power outage or minor surge, or downshift of power during brownout, or less than clean 60 cycle generator rotation, and especially when the corporation refuses to print service manuals or share information with ordinary folks because their phone techs are too few and too inexperienced to know the situation in every home.

    Hey how about a wifi anode rod that sends text to cell phone?

    #21677
    energyexpert
    Participant

    I figure a heat pump WH at my house would have a 10 year payback if all hot water is made by the heat pump and NO maintenance calls. Power on high tech equipment can be a problem. A neighbor has a Water Furnace geothermal heat pump. It will almost never run when the generator is supplying the house. And the worst part is that no one can figure it out.

    David

    #21678
    energyexpert
    Participant

    When you talk about 3-phase 480 volt water heaters… maybe you are specifying 3-phase non-balanced which looks identical to ordinary water heater and can be connected directly to single-phase power with minimal wiring change… as opposed to 3-phase balanced water heater that controls 3U-type elements with bank of relays located inside box attached to front of heater, with some wiring variations depending if power source is wye or delta?
    http://waterheatertimer.org/How-to-wire-water-heater-thermostats.html#3-phase

    I meant a 3 phase, 480 volt, balanced, 3 elements, 18 kW WH. The WH comes so the elements are wired phase A to B, A to C, and B to C in a delta arrangement. Make necessary wiring changes so each element is across 240 volts in a parallel arrangement. Output is 4500 watts.

    David

    #21679
    geno03245
    Participant

    I am looking for a 3-element tank…
    Specifically which water heater are you talking about?

    We are designing a DC water heater that can be connected directly to solar panel array,,, no expensive batteries or AC converters that need periodic replacement….
    One option is 3-element tank so we can vary the resistance load…. giving us a three levels of resistance… or 3 gears for pulling maximum output from solar panels.

    http://waterheatertimer.org/Convert-AC-water-heater-to-DC-water-heater.html
    http://waterheatertimer.org/Add-another-thermostat-to-gas-or-electric-water-heater.html

    #21680
    Randy Schuyler
    Keymaster

    Hidro Quebec was experimenting with a three-element tank for awhile and Andre LaPerriere presented about it at the 2011 Hot Water Forum. You can still find his presentation online at aceee.org.

    Randy Schuyler

    #21681
    energyexpert
    Participant

    I picked out the following, just as an example, not an endorsement.
    http://www.commercialwaterheatersales.com/american-standard-120-gallon-commercial-electric/
    You can get voltages in 208, 240, 277, and 480.
    kW ratings from 6 to 54.
    6 kW to 18 probably have 3 elements.
    24 to 36 probably have 6 elements and
    over 36 probably have 9 elements.
    I once saw a 500 gallon, 135 kW WH with 27 elements.

    Trouble with commercial WHs. Commercial means business, business means profit, and they want to share yours. ie, commercial WHs are pricey.

    David

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